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The Truth About WeaknessesFebruary 10, 2010 on 8:57 am | In Strength Training | 32 CommentsIts been awhile since I dropped a little rant on you guys! Hold on, here we go. I was engaged in a discussion on training people the other day with trainer from South Dakota. I’m going to call him “Tim” for this article since he is a friend and really is trying to grow everyday. The topic of baseball players came up (don’t zone out this applies to EVERYONE) and he ran through a program that had been using for about a month. Unfortunately he didn’t see many gains from his guys.
The program consisted of: rotational core strength for throwing, corrective exercises for the arm and shoulder, and hip mobility. It looks like all valuable components of a strength training program, so I asked him a simple question: “How many push ups can your guys do?” “I don’t know.” Tim replied. “What about pull ups?” “Our top guy is in the 3-4 range,” Tim said honestly. “What about body weight squats, how is their form and rep range?” “Well, its not so good,” he said. I gave him this advice – rotational core strength, arm strength, or mobility are not their weaknesses. ITS THEM!
Their full body is just too weak. Of course everything that he is doing is important to balancing out the athlete from their sport, but there is no primary movement, strength development, or explosive power creation. Those athletes are simply too weak. Now, the same goes FOR MORE THAN JUST ATHLETES. “I’m stuck at 115 lbs in my bench press at 14, what can I do to improve my numbers?”
The TRUTH is simple: Get Stronger. If your bench is 85 lbs, then you don’t truly have a specific weaknesses other than everything. Lift weights, do bodyweight exercises and GET STRONGER. If you can’t do 10 push ups, before you bench get stronger. If you can’t get your ass down on a bodyweight squat, get stronger. AND, if you are training little league’rs by only identifying weaknesses like they are in the MLB….GET THEM STRONGER! Now, to tone down my rant, I am grateful for these guys coming to the site and asking questions. I don’t blame them. It’s the bunch of crap they find on a lot of training sites that point them in the wrong direction. It seems like every site tries to come up with something sport specific and then recommend it to EVERYONE…but that’s a rant for another day. ==>But, am I wrong?What do you guys think? Should a beginner be spending all day doing band pull aparts or isolation exercises on weaknesses…or should they be getting stronger first? Joe PS. I don’t just complain, I help with solutions. Here is a GPP workout for the new guys – GPP Explained PPS. Here is how we went from ZERO bodyweight squats to 135 with good form in a month – First Squat or First Kiss
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Copyright © 2008 Synergy Athletics - Athlete Strength Trainers and Sport Coaches.
Located in Endicott, New York.
Questions or Comments? Don't mess around! Email us directly: CoachHashey@synergy-athletics.com
100% agree with your rant buddy. It is a must to set a strength bench mark and what better way than by doing bodyweight, so many can’t and not just because they are younger guys, I see plenty older guys struggling with these exercises.
They only see the iron. That is fine as long as you have a strong base to go with it. How many people do you see repping out the basics such as pushups, chins/pull ups and squats? not many.
For example I will test my legs by doing one huge bodyweight squat set, and I am not talking about 10, 20, 30 or even 50 I am talking 100’s here. The same with pushups. Even pulls, as hard as they are, you need to spend some time getting the reps high, then you can try variations on the theme.
I think you should train for a great strength and conditioning program, In general leave the sports specific stuff when training the sport.
Dean
Comment by DeanCoulson — February 10, 2010 #
Thanks Dean! Gotta get strong before being “weak” if that makes any sense!
Joe
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
Hit the nail on the head with the one Joe! It is totally amazing how kids (adults/coaches as well) can’t do a simple squat/pushup/pullup. Sickening is another word that comes to mind. Hell we even get parents asking how to get their kids bench numbers up…and the kid can barely do a push up! Like Dean, we’ll go for max numbers sometimes just for the heck of it…matter of fact my group is supposed to do 500 squats/push ups/burpees tonight…wonder how many will show up?
Comment by Bill Jones, MS, PT, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
Thanks Bill!
Did I read that right, 500 burpees?! Congrats to anyone that makes it through!
Joe
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
Hate to post twice in a row…but your “Get Stronger” message reminded me of an old Bruce Lee thing when someone asked him “How do you kick faster? Answer: “Kick faster.”
Comment by Bill Jones, MS, PT, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
We’ve done 100 in the Georgia sun last June (which totally sucked)…we did 300 in sets of 25 a couple of weeks ago. Tonight we’ll do 20 sets of 25 rotating the three exercises…by the way the push ups and the squats feel like rest periods after the burpees.
Comment by Bill Jones, MS, PT, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
This was a very interesting point. It makes me re-think the whole meaning of plateauing. Now I’m starting to think there might be 2 kinds. Physical plateauing and mental plateauing. That was also a good point that Bill made about Bruce Lee’s question and answer.
Rahim Samuel
Publisher, Wellnessbymanymeans.com
Comment by Rahim Samuel — February 10, 2010 #
haha no worries about the double post – Bruce Lee is smart man!
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
Strengthening weak links in the chain is only useful if you end up doing things that foster the full potential of the entire chain, so those ingredients this trainer had in his program may deserve a place to one degree or another, but it certainly is difficult to detect isolated weaknesses when everything is weak.
While it’s a bit of an oversimplification, the best policy is likely ensuring that an athlete is moving well (if not, that will certainly need to be addressed to find out where the hitch may be), it’s best to establish that base of strength by loading quality movement in the basic patterns. From there a coach can start to look and see what else may be worthwhile to sprinkle in, but without the foundation, the window dressing just doesn’t have the same impact.
On the flip side, I’ve seen some discussion of late between coaches speculating if there is a point (obviously not so much for younger athletes starting out) where strength is more than sufficient for the sport and position and if efforts should be focused strictly on maintaining that level while focusing on power. I can appreciate the focus on avoiding extra loading just for loading’s sake, especially since athletes are training to increase resistance to injury and enhance performance on the field/court/ice, not to simply increase lifts just because. My take on that end of the spectrum is that I will never push loading on an athlete and will listen to their feedback, but I would never stop seeking further strength gains so long as the quest wasn’t impairing recovery and performance in the sport was maintained or improving.
Comment by TJ — February 10, 2010 #
TJ, thanks for taking the time to put out a long response! Good thoughts all around.
Joe
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
couldnt agree more…simply said
Comment by bryan — February 10, 2010 #
Totally agree with your rant. Great ideas coming from your website (have just made four DIY sandbags for next to nothing and followed the exercises. Would be great to hear your views on young athletes and lifting weights – general view tells us teenagers should stick to bodyweight exercises while their bones are still growing but if you have a 14 year old lifting heavy weights are their any general guidelines or rules you follow or suggest?
Always a pleasure to read your views.
Comment by George Smart — February 10, 2010 #
Great post Joe! I get athletes all the time that come in and think they are strong but they can’t even do body weight stuff right or sometimes at all! I guess that helps to keep me employed!
Comment by Jerry Shreck — February 10, 2010 #
Thanks George! I hope those sandbags hold up for you.
Joe
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
on the money 100%
Comment by Keith Fine — February 10, 2010 #
Joe,
I couldn’t agree with ya more buddy!! Today soooo many athletes are just generally weak. Just the other day a dad brought his son by my gym and said he needed to get faster for college because he was receiving letters. His dad also boasted he was “All State.” I promptly asked this “All State” to perform 20 perfect push ups and 10 strict pull ups. Long story short mr all state looked more like “All Bench Warmer” performing less than half of the reps. Point is…….GET BULL STRONG!!!!
Comment by Travis Self — February 10, 2010 #
I tend to train multi-function movements. All workouts are based on squats, DL, OHP, bench, pull ups, power cleans, etc. I am not looking for a body builder’s physic, but I don’t think that too many here are.
My problem is the trainers that seem to be teaching their clients to be acrobats. It is great that you can balance on a pool noodle and pick up a kleenex off the ground, but really this is a party trick.
Athletes should be in the weight room for complex movements that will improve strength and decrease the potential for injury. You can do odd “core” work all day with little benefit outside of surgical rehab.
Sorry for the rant, but I get a little worked up that people are paying for this stuff.
Comment by Will — February 10, 2010 #
Right on.
Hey, if it works for gymnasts, why wouldn’t it work for just about everyone else?
The answer, which really applies to most areas of human life, is that the answer is so simple and obvious that no one WANTS to see it.
To build a big building, build a big foundation, right? But people just wanna stare at the top most point bedazzled on how to build it from the top down.
My opinion.
Comment by Gabe — February 10, 2010 #
Thanks Keith and Travis!
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
Gabe – good analogy with the building! Thanks for commenting.
Joe
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
Will, all rants are welcome! Sounds like your workouts have a good and strong foundation.
Joe
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
I loved this entry, and 100% agree with it. All too often coaches want to “identify weaknesses”, and perform assessments ad nauseum with their clients. Many of whom ARE IN HIGH SCHOOL. I have to laugh at this, because like you said, Joe, at the end of the day these kids are just plain weak! I had a parent tell me that his son needed to “focus on core.” I looked him dead in the eye and said, “Sir, with all due respect, your son needs to work on EVERYTHING.”
Sadly, many parents and high school coaches want their kids to emulate the pros. If “Joe All Star Pitcher” only does core training, then that’s what my son should do! What these parents and coaches fail to understand is that pro athletes are freaks! They are the EXTREMELY rare breed that is gifted with more natural strength and physical ability than the rest of us could ever dream of.
People want to make everything very complicated. GET stronger, get more mobile, clean up the diet, and everything will fall into place. Every time I get a high school baseball player that says he doesn’t want to get “too big” or “too strong” I tell him that if any MLB player walked in right now, he would be stunned at that man’s physical size! This usually makes my baseball players realize how far they have to go, and there is no such thing as “too big” or “too strong” in high school.
Rotational exercises are great, without question, but for the love of God, LOAD the athlete. Think about the musculature involved with rotational strength and power, and get it stronger. Low back. Obliques. Lats. Abdominals. Upper Back.
And finally, I have to laugh at the notion of “optimal strength”. I train a 6’3”, 197 pound athlete who can Trap Bar deadlift 605 lbs AND jump onto a 52 inch box. Obviously he is genetically gifted, and very neurally efficient, but I think his added strength is what has improved his vertical leap 3” over the last year. If we had just said “ahh, you are strong, you can deadlift 450 lbs, lets just work on other stuff” perhaps he wouldn’t be where he is today.
Joe, the name of your company is very fitting, because the best strength coaches, like yourself, understand that all of this stuff really does work “in synergy.”
Comment by Matt Phelps — February 10, 2010 #
Thanks Matt – that response was an article in itself!
Congrats on the high flying young man as well!
Joe
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 10, 2010 #
Yes… right on Joe. Build the foundation first; sounds obvious, but it’s ridiculous how few follow that advice.
Comment by Josh — February 10, 2010 #
They should be getting stronger. I do understand the rant. I want to rant sometimes. Then I realized that some people want something but are not willing to work for it. To get stronger, you actually have to work. You have to tear your muscles up and sweat a bit.
So, sometimes people fall for some fad work out programs because they seem easier than simply doing what you say, push ups, pull ups, proper weighted squats, all the basics. You want to shake them and wake them up but they will be in denial until it is there time to wake up. It might not be their time yet.
Comment by Rhea Morales — February 11, 2010 #
Absolutely right on Joe. Need GPP first then use bands for those small rotator cuff muscles. Won’t hurt doing the bands AFTER! Should help them with stabilizers right?
Comment by Steve — February 11, 2010 #
ok i`m just an old fart who likes to read joes articles not an educated professional like some of you but i thought a stronger player was a better player back when the dinosuars roamed the planet and i played high school football we lifted weights 3 days a week bp/powercleans/squats/dips was basically the workouts we did than we did drills and ran on the other days in season we just did our practices
is this not the basic blueprint to making a good athlete unless there are injuries
Joe you have an excellent site here thanks for the interesting articles
Comment by yogi isbell — February 12, 2010 #
Haha Yogi that’s a good way of putting it! Yes, that’s what I’m saying, get some strength in those bodies first.
Unfortunately I see a lot of “sport specific workouts” that will do something like go through a weighted and resisted throwing motion for 45 minutes. Both dangerous and pointless.
Joe
PS. Steve – great summary.
Comment by Admin: Joe Hashey, CSCS — February 12, 2010 #
Just thought I’d stop by again and say we did do a totally nutty thing with the squats, push ups and burpees. And the majority got the reps! Won’t be doing it any time soon however!
http://jonesercise.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/totally-nuts-500-is-now-the-new-300/
Comment by Bill Jones, MS, PT, CSCS — February 12, 2010 #
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